Quote by sephoroththe point in following christianity is the same for all religions to have a hope for somthing after life. if you read the bible all it says basically is to be a better person towards you fellow man......or woman, but any way there is no point to a religion all god is she/he is a thought created to make everyone think the same way so we can all be connected. some times be controled . like ."Donate money to the house of god or you will burn in hell". in short there is no point to any religion.................sorry to break it to ya

i take it youre atheist. um...just wondering, since you wrote "all [the Bible] says basically", have you read the Bible then? if you havent, which i think is the case, can you really act like you know what it says? and unless you have experienced all religions, i dont think you can say that "there is no point to any religion"

Quote by gnoelHave any of you ever heard of the 'Pari de Pascal': Pascal's gamble? Just for information, Pascal was dealing with a bit of every possible science in the 17th century and invented a calculator. He was more or less christian. He once tried to convince two of his friends, both gamblers. His idea was:

You have two things to lose: Truth and the Good, and two things to be engaged: your Reason and your Will, your Knowledge and your Bliss; and your nature has two things to flee: the Error and Misery. Your reason is not more wounded by choosing one or the other, since it is necessary to choose. Here is an emptied point. But your Bliss? Balances profit and loss, by taking choice that God is. Let us estimate these two cases: if you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you do not lose anything. Thus choose that it is, without hesitating.

Sorry for the translation, but 17th century French is not all that easily translated... Anyway the main idea is that you have to choose whether you believe in God or not.

If you believe in God and God truly exist, then you may go to the paradise, with angels and so on. If God doesn't exist, then you simply die and that's it. If you say that you don't believe in God while God exists, you go to Hell. And if God doesn't exist, you die and that's it.

So, as a whole, you can take the risk to believe that God exist... at best you win everything, and you can't loose much.

Hans Jonas added a few things to this. He said that if you want to believe in God, then, so as to reach eternal life, you had to get rid of materialistic ideas. If you win, you win all, but if you loose, you have lost something really important. Now, if you choose to live as an atheist, then if you loose, you have lost something extremely important too: eternal Bliss. In both cases, the loss is extreme...

If you want to add more complexity to the debate, you can fish out other old theories:

- causality : "If the Universe is comprehensible then everything has a cause, the cause has itself a cause and so on. If the continuation is infinite then the Universe is not comprehensible, in the contrary case there is an ultimate cause which is caused per nothing and which one can call God." Read Aristote and Saint Thomas d'Aquin.

- morality: "The moral argument consists in saying that morals cannot exist without God, since it is Him which decides what is Good and what is Bad, and that it is consequently the ultimate base of morals. If it is supposed that God does not exist, one must conclude from it that the existence is stripped of moral value, and that there is neither Good nor Bad in our actions. To support the moral argument (read, for example, Dostoievski), it is to say that the atheists must accept that all is allowed unless they contradict themselves."

thank you for replying. im afraid i cant quite comprehend everything youve written. but thank you for suggesting some reading. it will take me a long time though i have no will power.
just wondering are you Christian? sorry i cant tell from what people say since theyre just answering my question.

merged: 03-04-2006 ~ 04:42am

Quote by gnoelHi there!

Well, thank you for opening up some threads. It's always nice to share some points of views.

By the way, I try to be a christian, even though most people who know me usually are surprised to know this. Being christian is not about going to the mass and being afraid of God, it's more about having hope, trying to be honest with yourself and others and finally recognizing what's great around you. But that's the same thing with quite a good deal of religions...

well, being Christian is about glorifying God, which is really difficult to explain to non-Christians why its so awesome. other religions tend to serve the follower rather than the god

Quote by DarkFate13I think this quote sums up all I have to say about this topic. "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." (Steven Weinberg, Physicist)

who exactly do you have in mind when you say "good people to do evil things, that takes religion"?

Quote by PlunkiesWhat is the point? I suppose the point would be different for everyone. An easier question would be what is the reason. The answer to that is quite simple. People are sheep. They want to be a part of a group, they want acceptance from those around them, and they like having ideas that don't require too much thought or make them to deal with anything.

Oh I'm going to die? That's scary and I can't cope with that, so I'll extend my life forever by "believing" there's an eternal afterlife. I can't see my loved ones after they're dead? Well gee that sucks, maybe they'll be there up in heaven with me too since I'm already living forever. Oh I can't figure out the origin of life? Ok a supreme being did it, that's convenient! What's the meaning of life? To worship our supreme being and get into heaven of course. But most people just accept Christianity for the convenience of it. I don't honestly believe a smart, reasonable person could truly believe such stories. If you really thought your ETERNITY was dependent upon this blink of an eye life on Earth you'd drop everything and start working to be as good of a Christian as physically possible. But you don't. It wouldn't be convenient, and you probably settled on Christianity for the sake of convenience in the first place. And you'll still be afraid to die despite the fact that you "know" there's a heaven waiting for you in the afterlife full of eternal happiness and bliss (why the heck would you want to go there? I'd be afraid too!).

You're not sure what the point of Christianity is because you were born into the religion. You never really chose to be a Christian, the ideas were simply pounded into your head like a square peg into a round hole. If you had chosen the best path for you on your own then you'd have already known what the point of it was right?

kyokujitsu: "It all comes down to whether you choose to believe or not, choose to be open-minded and accepting about what religious people say, or choose, as I see it, to be stubborn and believe in nothing but your own abilities."

I'm not sure you understand what "open-minded" means. Here's a hint, it doesn't mean agreeing with your specific beliefs. You don't see the irony in your statement? (you seriously chose the word "stubborn"?) You say "believe in nothing" and I say "grounded in reality". I am open-minded. Most atheists are open-minded. He may be open to new ideas but that doesn't mean he has to blindly accept them. Blindly accepting things isn't open-mindedness, it's faith. You bring solid proof to an atheist that your god exists and he will have no choice but to believe it just as he believes in the rest of reality. Until then he's obligated to sort your god into the column occupied by unicorns and big foot.

eXDream2K5: "I can turn to God in my times of need"

There's another reason. It's easy to turn to a supreme being who's always on your side when you need help or comfort. But it's a double edged sword. Something goes wrong in a Christian's life and he turns to God to pray or weep. The atheist looks to reality and focuses on solving his problems. Guess which one gets results? But we don't always do what's best for us do we? Perhaps if we stopped telling everyone there's a perfect heaven after we die we'd get off our asses and start creating our heaven here on Earth.

joiboidadoughboi:

Of course I'm not naive enough to believe that every single person can choose to do the right thing on their own. Some need a God to keep them from doing evil and to keep them moral. So I guess that is the point of Christianity. It's useful to certain people. Is your atheist friend one of those people? Probably not, and that's probably why he's atheist.

im sorry i cannot accept your answer as truth. where is your solid proof? you say that atheists need solid proof to believe anything. where is your solid proof that solid proof will prove the existence of things? where is your solid proof that the universe is out there? where is your solid proof that brain is there? now tell me, have you personally ever beheld your solid proof? im very interested in your solid proof for everything you've said in your post.

Quote by Elven-Inccubus:) You have nothing to thank for, mellon (Elvish for "friend")....it's really nice to talk about God and not having argues, I really understand the different ways to seek for happiness, and you're on the right path, I am completely sure!

I must say, I feel honoured for having a reply on my reply jejejeje...^^ It's just I wanted to show you I care for deep questions like this.

Well, my best wishes for you, mellon ^^ Hope you be fine when reading this....may the stars shine upon you...take care....namarie...

thank you for your blessings! you seem like the kind of person who thinks about this sort of deep stuff very often. because of your reply im becoming more and more interested in theology! thank you! it would be cool if one day we meet each other in real life by accident as theology students at a university!

Quote by vincent214Belief is beyond reason. The whole point of belief is that there is no point.

i suppose that is true...but...there always seems to be a "reason" for one's belief...for me it is a feeling...a feeling of peace and joy...maybe im weird...

Quote by eXDream2K5Okay to sum it all up, we needed an explanation as to why we are here way back in the day. Back then, before science could prove otherwise, the answer was simple: God created us.

Humanity needs a superhero, basically. We need someone who is omnipresent, omnipotent, someone who will save us in the end. God is that superhero. No, people don't go insane without a higher being, but they lose something when they say, "There is no God." I used to say stuff like that, and I still challenge Christian faith, because all sects of Christianity preach ideals and beliefs that I do not agree with. However, since regaining my faith when I was 16, I've felt complete and whole. I can turn to God in my times of need and cry without feeling shame.

My dad's mother passed away a few days ago. I am grateful to God for allowing me the chance to say "good-bye" to the woman who helped raise me, because I never got to say "good-bye" to my mom's father before he passed away nearly three years ago. When Granddad (mom's father) passed away, it was a shock to me, because he'd seemed so healthy and because I'd never lost a loved one before. It taught me that the ones I love most could be taken from me at any time. With Mama (dad's mother), I knew she was dying, and that's made accepting her death much easier. It's still very hard, but God is with me to comfort me, to help me heal, and to guide me.

My apologies for making this a bit personal, but I hope I explained that well enough.

thank you for your testimony and congratulations on returning safely! i also do not agree with everything all the different branches of Christianity say. i rather turn to the Bible or pray to God and listen for what He has to say about it.
my paternal grandmother and maternal grandfather recently went through surgery and my grandmother is still recovering from it. i hope i can follow your example and seek God for comfort and strength when the time comes and when anything happens, good or bad. thank you for sharing your experience!

Quote by AraszunWe're not supposed to beleive in God just because of the reward of Heaven. We are supposed to believe, because God created us. He is our Master and it is our duty to serve Him. God is not here for us, to help us, we are hear for God.
By the way RubyDrg0n "Religion" is not for Morality

that is true but i thought salvation is usually the first reason one becomes a Christian. as one walks with God one begins to live for Him. it is hard to explain to non-believers that God is so worthy of our praise, and that is the reason of our existence. they lived their whole lives believing they are the most important person in their individual lives.

Quote by alexjohnc3Well I don't believe in God myself, I want to know the truth and based on my current ability to reason and my knowledge that is a lack of theism. Feel free to PM me with your arguments for theism, I like to discuss it with anyone willing to (BTW, I'm an agnostic atheist). ^_^

And why did you write that you are six years old? 0_o

woah! i totally never realized that my profile says im 6! im actually 15 i changed it now. thank you for telling me
sorry but you'll have to wait while i study really hard before i can argue on the behalf for Christianity. when i can i'll answer you

Quote by alexjohnc3If God exists and it created you and everything else and it wants everyone to worship it and be Jewish/Christian/Muslim then you should worship it. That's my logic anyways, and as you said that you'll go to hell with eternal suffering and such.

However if God doesn't exist there's obviously no point in the religion unless you lack the intellect to be moral without someone telling you to be. So to the "non-believers" who aren't intelligent enough to be moral, time to convert to some religion that will force you to be moral or be damned to suffer forever. But as for intelligent non-believers, they will believe in Christianity if they are shown it is true. If you can't do that they have no reason to believe it. Hope this helps.

i suppose that is the whole point apologetics exists: to prove to intelligent non-Christians that Christianity is true. thank you. though i am rather interested in your opinion of the whole whether God exists or not

Quote by RubyDrg0nbut if you do so.... it will stop the progress of your religion as well....

To truly understand your religion is to understand its advantage and disadvantage... so learn everything....good or bad... right or wrong about it... that is how ppl should believe in their religion.... if any ppl have any negative comments... think about it.... put some thoughts into it and understand why.... go through all the basis of the religion and human thoughts (dont try to use religion to answer everything coz it is only a moral thing)---> this part is about overcoming it by yourself, not running to God without really overcoming it...... only go ask God for help when you really needs it....

also one more thing... you should still be searching for the Eden of thoughts....(Eden here is symbolic... but it sound nice...)... dont stop on your religion but try others as well... its not about joining but about understanding...

*reminder: dont use your religion as a guide for everything because it is for morality only!

so when you truly understand all ... you can truly choose your believe and wat you think is right....

if one finds something wrong with one's religion, should not one stop following it? but i agree with how one should ponder and understand negative comments on one's religion, the reasoning why the person said it and whether it is actually true or not. i must say God is not there just to help you when you really need it, at least not in Christianity. He wants a steady one-on-one relationship with everyone. He is just like any other friend in that He wants to share everything with us, not just pain and suffering but also adventures and joy.
do you mean by saying running to God without really overcoming, that whenever someone helps you, you are not really doing anything? in that case, no one has accomplished anything is the history of anything.
also, religion may be merely a moral thing, but Christianity is not merely a religion. it is a way of life; it was meant to change a person completely, everything from thoughts to words to actions.
"Eden of thoughts" does have a nice ring to it though

merged: 02-28-2006 ~ 03:19am

Quote by RubyDrg0naraszun: can you pls prove tat? pls dont disapprove me for no reasons... i have my own reasons to write that up.... and it is not simply "just saying"....so pls....:)

alexjohnc3: you seems very bias for your religion.... even if i am "intelligent"(judge me whether i am) non-believer... i would believe Buddhism more than Christianity.... i wouldnt "worship" a god even if he/she/it created me, who cant even help us rite..(look at the world....)... if he really wanna help us.... through Christianity.... we should all be born and become Christians... but we are not.... why? coz "evil" is too powerful for him to control properly?

sry for all artheist or non-believers or intellects out there... i use "evil" just to argue in their language.....

just curious but what about Buddhism draws you?
ok, it is not that God cannot help us, it is because God chooses not it, not because He is evil but because people learn much much more from difficult experience than constant happiness. example: in general, when parents shelter their children and give them whatever they want, the children become spoiled. if God did that all His followers would be spoiled. God purposely allows Satan to tempt us and test us, but only within the limits of our strength. if it is not, He is just waiting for us to turn and ask Him and He will support us and help us through the difficulties. also, the "evils" of the world give us all, whether Christian or atheist or Buddhist or Muslim or whatever you are, to put our kindness to the test. how willing are you to help someone if he or she is infected with the most contagious disease? how willing are you to help someone if he or she is a murderer? how willing are you to help someone if he or she is a prostitute? how willing are you to help someone if he or she is the manifestation, the embodiment, the epitome of what you hate the most? if one is truely the follower of Christianity then one would do one's utmost best to help that person.
sorry if i sound kind of mean, i am just sort of tired of hearing that same argument over and over. my apologies.

Quote by kyokujitsuSorry, but I have to argue. I don't think the point of religion is "fear", nor do I accept that people will go insane without religion. However, I do agree that religion is about belief, or faith if you will. Belief in a higher being that guides us, however subtly. To answer why you should follow Christianity, I think it is partly about things like salvation and stuff, but in the end, I don't think you can tell anyone why they should follow a religion. It all comes down to whether you choose to believe or not, choose to be open-minded and accepting about what religious people say, or choose, as I see it, to be stubborn and believe in nothing but your own abilities.

But for all people posting a negative view of religion in this thread, I think they should stop. It's not helping the threadstarter to answer his question, and though Tinbad says he doesn't want anyone to flame him or anything, it would be inevitable in a thread by a Christian asking how he can explain to an Atheist this question. Keep your negative comments to threads asking for both sides of a question.

one cannot tell someone to follow a religion, but one can say why one follows one's religion. its just awkard to bring that into a conversation
thank you for considering my question though i dont mind what Tinbad said, for it was very thought-provoking
btw, im actually a girl although online, people have thought that im a guy, so im not taking any offense

Quote by Tinbad These are my opinions based on facts and speculation. please do not respond with flames or irrational arguements. And if you deeply religious or like to sleep well at night, then do not read or take this sincerely... Belief in something is peoples reason to live.

Well, to start with... The main reason in which any religion exists is because of fear. Most people have to believe in something or they will to insane.
And to bring up that whole point of hell being so horrible and such... According to Chrisanity if you acknowlage your sins and ect. ect. you gain salvation.
But then theres the fact that when you die the most likely possibility that will happen is that you will simply blink out of existance, or something like that. But if most people believed that then what would be the point in living anyways?
I no longer praying or believe in church, although I only had to and still have to go on holidays. I don't believe there is some "divine" being or such. Maybe something such as a particle or such that caused life.
When you apply all facts of science, the universe shouldnt exist. There is no cause for the effect of existance. some people find it hard to consintrate on this subject due to the fact it is beyond what anyone can comprehend. Sometimes people even force themselves to forget these facts, similar to someone who is in denile. So basically most people are in denile of reality.

haha thank you for your preceeding warning! you are right about how people live for a belief, be it a dream, goal, or religion. though they might not go insane without a belief. but i dont think that fear is the reason for religion. perhaps for older religions, but one must consider that at the time of their creation thousands of years ago, people were more primitive and brutal, their mental capacity was more limited. therefore God had to speak to humans in their own language, with something they understand. i would think the reason most people convert to Christianity is salvation from hell, but for disciples, who have followed for a long time, their resaons are completely different; they want to be with God, they cannot bear to part from Him. as to the point of living, when one is born one does not exactly have a say in the matter. as a child, one does not consider why one exists, one simply enjoys life. as one matures, perhaps thoughts of suicide come. some actually suicide but most keep living. not all surviving people believe in life after death. i would say they prefer to not think about it and just concentrate on living. they live to feel or to have certain things.
i must say i like your "theory" that most people are in denial of reality

Quote by Elven-InccubusI personally believe in God, however I prefer to stay away from religion threads, precisly for the same reason that Kellyo mentions.

I respect every way of thinking, because that's the "pepper and salt" of this world we live in. But getting to your point, I needed to state that you must be thankful and happy with the gifts and love that God and Jesus gives you. If you want to show this great gifts to others, tell them how this makes you happy, the way those gifts that God gave you make you feel good, in your soul and concious. Share your happiness-

And if those people do not understand you, just let them aside, understand them and do not disrespect them talking about it again and again, because that is not the point, you will just increase the distance. They have to decide on their own. Not everyone reaches happiness by the same meanings. Search for friends that have similar beliefs to yours.

And, again as Kellyo said, study......search for the light of the truth.....you know it......now get deeper...because I study and search for my part, I read the Bible and analyze its words, and I also study other aspects of Christianism, even some themes that others fear....I am a theology amateur student myself....not a serious theologist but I try to understand the ways and existence of God Almighty...........search the truth.....seek for happiness, caring for others.....you shall recive what you give.......that is (for me, in few words) the meaning of being God-believer.

May the stars shine upon you ^^ Namarie (Elvish for "good-bye")

i think you are right about sharing happiness; it seems like a good way to "prove" that Christianity is totally worth following. although i feel like i cannot let people go. they are important to me and i want them to know God and be with Him. but what you say about not incessantly bothering them is wise. however i disagree with you on befriending only those with similar beliefs. of course if people have different opinions there probably will be some tension but if they are willing they can learn to live in peace. i think the best way to witness to non-Christians is to live among them and be like Christ [i suppose much like your advice to share happiness], a light shining in their lives. but one should keep close Christian friends for encouragement and support when one is discouraged. also, one should not gradually become like the non-Christians, making sure to walk close to Jesus. yes, i need to study the Bible more before i can prove with words. but right now, i can follow your advice and prove with my actions. thank you! good luck on becoming a serious theologist!

Quote by kellyoProbably not the best forum to post this thread because of the many people who will do what they can to show you believe in a "sky pixie", or a phantasmagore, or that your belief is weak and unproven. First of all, you have the Truth and you know that.

So, the answer to your question is easy - study. Learn what it meant for a jewish boy, or young man, to follow a rabbi. Learn what they had to do to learn from him. Learn that Jesus called all of us to "Come, follow Me." Don't get discouraged just study and pray. "Ask...seek...and knock."

haha that was actually the first time i posted in that forum. thank you for your encouragement! the only problem in following your advice is my lack of will power

haha ^^ you have a unique name too
keep making nice wallpapers! *cheers*

haha ^_^; sorry but i really love things fall apart...its so sweet and beautifully sad